Sygnum
And regarding Entagma. Moritz overall has a few tutorials without any vex code in it. But Manuel...phew...extremely frustrating to watch and to listen to.

Well, it depends on what your background is / how your brain works: I find both Entagma guys pretty intuitive for me, and usually find that anything easily acomplished with code should not be done any other way. I suppose that's why I love Houdini so much, it's like an 3D Operative System. And you can approach any problem to solve in so many different ways....

jarenas
and usually find that anything easily acomplished with code should not be done any other way.

Just because something may seem easy in code doesn't mean that intuitive node for that purpose wouldn't be better, but of course it's a personal reference

Even though in production reinventing the wheel can cost valuable time so knowing all the nodes and how they work is definitely useful before one decides to write code that attempts to do the same thing possibly in less robust way

Using dedicated nodes has another advantage and that is it makes setups much more readable
It can be pretty tedious to go over setups where every node is a wrangle especially unnamed just to find out that most of that is unnecessary or buggy

So I definitely prefer having arsenal of dedicated intuitive nodes, than having to write code, even though I also have that bad habit of defaulting to VEX for stuff I don't need to

tamte
Using dedicated nodes has another advantage and that is it makes setups much more readable
It can be pretty tedious to go over setups where every node is a wrangle especially unnamed just to find out that most of that is unnecessary or buggy

Good point. That's one of those bad habits you get when you've worked a lot of time alone hehe...I always default to VEX

jarenas

Sygnum
And regarding Entagma. Moritz overall has a few tutorials without any vex code in it. But Manuel...phew...extremely frustrating to watch and to listen to.

Well, it depends on what your background is / how your brain works: I find both Entagma guys pretty intuitive for me, and usually find that anything easily acomplished with code should not be done any other way. I suppose that's why I love Houdini so much, it's like an 3D Operative System. And you can approach any problem to solve in so many different ways....

Or when you need to do multiple embedded loops and conditions with math equations.
I would be happy to have some kind of abstract level(extended functionality) for edges(half-edges) to deal with to quickly split polys and edges, find angles, visualize them at geometry spreadsheet.

Defaulting to VEX is a bit silly. I routinely come across complicated wrangles written by Artists
who have simply not bothered to read up on any new SOP based nodes added since H15 onwards.
The vast majority of the time, these SOP nodes do the exact funtions they have held to their hearts forever,
but often extend on them, are more flexible, and have an actual usable UI.
I cannot stress enough how important UX is to usage of tools. Monolithic wrangles with awful UI exposure end
up routinely ignored due to how esoteric they can be, depending on the Artist who coded them.

Wrangles and VEX have their place, no question, but anyone suggesting things should be leaning towards VEX
at the expense of all the newer nodes and their much better UIs, is missing the bigger picture entirely.

L

jarenas

Sygnum
And regarding Entagma. Moritz overall has a few tutorials without any vex code in it. But Manuel...phew...extremely frustrating to watch and to listen to.

and usually find that anything easily acomplished with code should not be done any other way.

That doesn't make sense. If something is easily accomplished with code it either is just an expression, doesn't exist as a singular node or takes up too many nodes to build. But in all cases the code version very likely isn't "easy". The "easiest" solution will always be an existing one.

It reminds me a bit of that colleague, who used a tedious setup in after effects for a decade, not knowing that there was a plug-in for the exact result he was looking for, but faster and better in any sense.

Sygnum

jarenas

Sygnum
And regarding Entagma. Moritz overall has a few tutorials without any vex code in it. But Manuel...phew...extremely frustrating to watch and to listen to.

and usually find that anything easily acomplished with code should not be done any other way.

That doesn't make sense. If something is easily accomplished with code it either is just an expression, doesn't exist as a singular node or takes up too many nodes to build. But in all cases the code version very likely isn't "easy". The "easiest" solution will always be an existing one.

It reminds me a bit of that colleague, who used a tedious setup in after effects for a decade, not knowing that there was a plug-in for the exact result he was looking for, but faster and better in any sense.

Of course it depends on so many factors: freelancer or solo (regarding maintenance), Tinyhawks made a good point regarding this on larger organizations, the specific problem to solve, whether it needs or not user interaction, etc. On the other side, I can assure you I’m not the only one who finds a well documented piece of code one order of magnitude more legible than a complex or long network of nodes. And that should not be so difficult to understand, if code was always such a difficult thing to understand, software would not be written by code, but, on the contrary, visual programming tools on software development are still rarely used.

Personally I’m just happy to have both options at any given time in Houdini.

But this is an interesting topic and don’t want to derail this topic more. Where is that sneak peek, please?

One thing is certain and I think we can all agree. If SideFX wants to attract more typical C4D or Blender artists, it will have to work on finding a way to make Houdini more approachable. Houdini is known as very technical, almost impossible to learn if you don't know to program. And I hear that all the time whenever I suggest someone to try Houdini, people are genuinely afraid, I was too...but I had a good motivation. Also reading some YouTube comments can be very fun, as they can be so hilariously funny.

SIgor420
Houdini is known as very technical

It's true. Houdini doesn't sugar-coat anything. You can accomplish whatever you want with it, but it often takes a lot of study and practice.

I really like what SideFX is doing with Labs. I feel like that's where all the user-friendly development efforts are going. They're releasing new stuff at breakneck pace, including some really cool tree tools recently.

It makes a lot of sense to do things this way. After all, you can already make trees in Houdini, but what was lacking was a nice wrapper for common tasks. Same goes for draping, sculpting, and grooming. Each task just needs a Labs wrapper and 90% of the difficulty would be removed.

SIgor420
One thing is certain and I think we can all agree. If SideFX wants to attract more typical C4D or Blender artists, it will have to work on finding a way to make Houdini more approachable. Houdini is known as very technical, almost impossible to learn if you don't know to program.

agree 100%. I am very interested in seeing what Houdini does for 19. I have been working in houdini this past year and if 19 doesn't have any usability + ui improvements I think they will lose a big market share of people from c4d or blender that may have tried houdini. Specially since c4d and blender will only get better and better incorporating node workflows. It makes strategic sense to get houdini not more technical adding more and more tools but easier so more people stick with it.
The whole ui experience is dreadful. Look at c4d r25 ui for how they are actively reworking their u.i


Already the fact that they haven't release 19 yet is a big turn off, when blender and c4d are pumping out releases every few months. If people are dedicating their time to learning such hard software it would be good to get more news about what sidefx is doing to make things easier for artist.


Yet obviously I give props to the sidefx team for making such a magical software where we can do anything, I just would like it to be my main tool.

Coming from 3DSMax I have to say I really like the UI
I think in terms of UX, proceduralism is the experience. Once you get used to the different way of working it’s so powerful, not least when a client wants to make changes and all you have to do is swap out a few nodes… a thing of beauty!

As for the vex debate, I understand why people see it as such a steep leaning curve, but just from my own experience learning, that steep upfront investment has really helped with understanding some of the fundamentals going on under the hood so feel less adrift when I’m not sure how to do something. The best piece of advice I heard was from Simon holmedal (At least I think it was and pretty sure he was a cinema user previously) and that was to just get really comfortable with Sops, forget any simulation or other stuff for the first year.

It's so interesting to read comments on both forums about their DCC of choice. C4D folks smashed with criticism Maxon due to its lack of features in R25 and pretty much in the last few years while being the only company that doesn't offer an Indie license and forces people in subscription bs while convincing you its the best thing ever. Redshift will from now on be the only subscription-based, many assume C4D will go that route at some point too, while C4D perpetual license at this point is crazy high for what it offers. For years C4D artists are jealous of all the sweet things Houdini and Blender is getting every single year.

If anyone is interested in reading it, here you go...
https://www.core4d.com/ipb/forums/topic/115494-cinema-r25-release-announcement/#comments [www.core4d.com]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1nnDIlmEo8 [www.youtube.com]

tsiwt
Already the fact that they haven't release 19 yet is a big turn off, when blender and c4d are pumping out releases every few months.

You have free access to daily builds with bug fixes, and occasionally a new feature. Combine that with the fact that SideFX support is probably the most interactive and responsive of any other DCC company out there, and will get your critical bug fixed ASAP.

Meanwhile, Labs is adding new features every month or so usually.

I'm not sure why not having the next version is a problem, when the existing version is already extremely capable, already outperforming both the software packages you mentioned - in features, flexibility and performance.

All this with the most accessible Indie pricing, alongside an entirely free learning version.

I can't wait to see what 19 brings, but SideFX clearly know what they are doing, and personally I'm very content to let them take their time and get things right for their next release instead of doing what other major DCCs are doing with minor updates and bug-riddled releases.

In fact, I think SideFX fell into that bug trap with 18, where it was quite buggy on release, and it took them quite a while to fix things. Hopefully, going forward they decide to scale their pace back and favour reliability over speed for their software releases.

jarenas
and usually find that anything easily acomplished with code should not be done any other way.

I disagree with this. I use a lot of wrangle nodes in my projects, but if I have the choice between a factory node and a custom wrangle I much prefer the factory node.

This is because it gives me a better idea of what's going on in the network without needing to select each node. For instance, if I have Sphere -> Mountain -> Peak -> Ray I can immediately get a good idea of what this does. If I have Sphere -> Point VOP -> Point Wrangle it's much less obvious.

SIgor420
It's so interesting to read comments on both forums about their DCC of choice. C4D folks smashed with criticism Maxon due to its lack of features in R25 and pretty much in the last few years while being the only company that doesn't offer an Indie license and forces people in subscription bs while convincing you its the best thing ever. Redshift will from now on be the only subscription-based, many assume C4D will go that route at some point too, while C4D perpetual license at this point is crazy high for what it offers. For years C4D artists are jealous of all the sweet things Houdini and Blender is getting every single year.

If anyone is interested in reading it, here you go...
https://www.core4d.com/ipb/forums/topic/115494-cinema-r25-release-announcement/#comments [www.core4d.com]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1nnDIlmEo8 [www.youtube.com]

Maxon used some dirty tricks to cover up how insanely overpriced C4D is. They introduced subscription at a very high price point but kept perpetual so nobody can say there was no choice - at the same time they got rid of the cheaper editions that existed before. The former studio edition was ridiculous because you needed that thing to do any kind of character animation while at the same time it contained loads of highly specialized but features useless to the majority of artists (CAD data import etc.). And to top it off, they're the only company now without an indie version...

Other than that: yes, please, more labs tools!! The efforts of sidefx brought Houdini out from the cabinet of oddities but artists are still struggling with it's still very technical nature.

I had no idea Autodesk had introduced an indie version... not that i'll be going back, but about time

SIgor420
Redshift will from now on be the only subscription-based, many assume C4D will go that route at some point too

It`s very clear that`s gonna happen. They just announced that Red Giant (which Maxon acquired) will go 100% subscription and C4D will be sold perpetually as long as there`s demand...
But this latest move is totally crazy given that their Trapcode Plugins are quite popular within motion graphics people. I myself used them a lot back in the days but stepped away bit by bit. In the end I used only Particular and sometimes Starglow. Two years ago I was down to using only Particular. But then I trashed even that as I didn`t wanted to be dependent on that crazy expensive plugin and moved to the newer plugin "Stardust". Good move. With Red Giant complete I`d need to pay 700 bucks every year just to use one Plugin...and before anyone tells me that I`ll be able to use their whole suite: I have an Adobe CC sub and never used anything except After Effects, Photoshop and Illustrator from their collection of a gazillion apps.

eikonoklastes

tsiwt
Already the fact that they haven't release 19 yet is a big turn off, when blender and c4d are pumping out releases every few months.

You have free access to daily builds with bug fixes, and occasionally a new feature. Combine that with the fact that SideFX support is probably the most interactive and responsive of any other DCC company out there, and will get your critical bug fixed ASAP.

Meanwhile, Labs is adding new features every month or so usually.

Yeah I get your point, if I was an expert in Houdini I would probably feel the same way. But sidefx already has the expert as customers, I am talking about what would benefit them in terms of getting new people into the software and have them stay with it.i don't want the latest bug fixes or new nodes on the experimental or new nodes from sidefx labs. We need a breakthrough here that will make Houdini more usable for independent artist.
I would like to know are they working on making the render process easier and more intuitive. Are they trying to solve the clutter u.i and u.x experience? can they pack the code in a way that we don't have to be typing the same code all the time.

Even if the release is buggy I can always work on previous release but I would like to know they are actively working on this instead of waiting a year to figure it out.

as always with every critique comes praise for the amazing software, and that I would't even know how to start in making the software more approachable except by making conceptual generalizations such as the ones above..

Sygnum

SIgor420
Redshift will from now on be the only subscription-based, many assume C4D will go that route at some point too

It`s very clear that`s gonna happen. They just announced that Red Giant (which Maxon acquired) will go 100% subscription and C4D will be sold perpetually as long as there`s demand...
But this latest move is totally crazy given that their Trapcode Plugins are quite popular among motion graphics people. I myself used them a lot back in the days but stepped away bit by bit. In the end, I used only Particular and sometimes Starglow. Two years ago I was down to using only Particular. But then I trashed even that as I didn`t want to be dependent on that crazy expensive plugin and moved to the newer plugin "Stardust". Good move. With Red Giant complete I`d need to pay 700 bucks every year just to use one Plugin...and before anyone tells me that I`ll be able to use their whole suite: I have an Adobe CC sub and never used anything except After Effects, Photoshop and Illustrator from their collection of a gazillion apps.

To me seems like the whole industry going that way and we don't really have a choice or voice over it. As long as people give $$, they don't care. At this point so far the only "good guys" that are left are Blender and SideFX. But for how long SideFX can stay in that realm, it's something I would like to know. I guess we can only wait and see what happens.

Technically Houdini Indie is a subscription.