I have been working with fur for some years. It has been at times quite a prickly problem. I envision Houdini, renowned for it's handling of prickly problems, being able to tackle this one with aplomb.

To that end, I'd like to begin with a simple example of where I think Houdini fur is at right now.

I have attached two images. Both took the same amount of time to set up. One of them took about 20 times longer to render than the other, can you guess which?

This is quite illustrative of where we need to go in order to get Houdini into a realistically usable range regarding fur. One could begin with some really good presets similar in quality to the Maya render below.

Both images were rendered with all default settings and a basic fur preset.
After about four hours of work, I was still not able to get the Mantra render looking even marginally close to the instant mr render.

So in keeping with the direction SESI has taken on improving artist interface, workflow and render speed, this seems a next logical step.



Nick

Yep, You don't have such nice preset by default and I think that it is quite normal that after “some years” of working with fur in maya u will get nice result after few minutes…

After NOT working for many years with fur and not knowing maya fur I can say totally same thing in opposite direction.

I think presets would make a nice addition, or just some sample scenes. But from what i have learnt using Houdini is you invest a little time and it makes it easier to tweak an adjust ad just work with.

Plus i think the method of just turning things up hoping they work is not the best way to go. You will end up increasing render times and getting unpredictable results.

But fur, as you know is a combination of modelling and lighting.

I played a bit tonight with some of the tools. It's just a test of some of the grooming tools. Didnt spend anytime on the lighting. But the way i work is at low fur strands, see how things look and render. Make changes, restore the overall density half way etc.





Just taking your time and not expecting amazing results and switching PBR on because you can. Groom, then light, then render.

If you have made good looking fur before then it wont be long before you produce results you will be happy with. just take small steps breaking it down.

Plus i think the method of just turning things up hoping they work is not the best way to go. You will end up increasing render times and getting unpredictable results.

I cannot agree more. At least Houdini gives you the toolset to roll your own.

tmdag
Yep, You don't have such nice preset by default and I think that it is quite normal that after “some years” of working with fur in maya u will get nice result after few minutes…

After NOT working for many years with fur and not knowing maya fur I can say totally same thing in opposite direction.

Let me clarify.

My years of fur work was not in Maya. I have never used Maya fur in production. However I click a few buttons using default presets using Maya and I get a beautiful render. I click the similar few buttons in Houdini and get a not-beautiful render. So it's not a matter of familiarity with the tool. And even so, that wouldn't account for the wild render time diff.

However, I would be very happy for someone who has worked with Houdini fur for a while to show me a simple, beautiful fur render like the maya one above. And then I'd love to see the settings that achieved it so I can learn.

Any takers?

Nick

circusmonkey
I cannot agree more. At least Houdini gives you the toolset to roll your own.

That's a good point.

I wonder what my producer will choose when faced with these two options.

Option 1: have an artist open up maya, spend two days grooming and render amazing looking fur.

Option 2: hire a Houdini TD team to work for three months designing a fur system that works. Then have an artists spend two days grooming and render amazing looking fur.

The fact that you CAN roll your own is one of Houdini's amazing strengths. But you shouldn't HAVE TO roll your own just to get something that looks decent.

Nick

I think sample files in the documentation are whats needed here rather than presets.

But here is some work done with Houdini Fur

www.andyboyd3d.com

http://www.andyboyd3d.com/images/squirrel2.htm [andyboyd3d.com]

http://www.sidefx.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1193&Itemid=68 [sidefx.com]

Phrenzy84, I'd love to take a crack at lighting that, beard, if you can part with it. Sure would provide more valid and interesting results than a ball, no doubt. Can you share your .hip file?

NIck

Presets definitely would not be the only answer. As a matter of fact, they should be the last step of a general enhancement to fur rendering that should include massive optimization to allow some kind of GI lighting of fur. Currently anything other than shadow maps are prohibitive to render, meaning fur will never get quite photoreal, unless you start using crazy 1990 techniques like spinning lights, light arrays and so forth.

Thanks for the squirrel reference, I looked closely at that some time ago when I was bidding a furry creature project and we were considering rendering the fur out of Mantra. It almost looks photoreal. I'd love to see how it was achieved. If you look through the whole spot, you will see that all the best looking fur is not CG and that there is a real depth and sheen missing from the CG fur wherever it is shown. So this is a good, but not awesome example of CG fur. It's also the _only_ example I've ever been given of decent looking Houdini fur.

Is there anyone on this thread who believes the tools could be better? Or does everyone think they're just fine as is, and we should just accept that making fur look great from Mantra just takes a lot longer because we can each build our own from scratch?

Oh an BTW, I would definitely not feel comfortable at present bidding a big fur job with Mantra as the fur renderer, having spent a couple of weeks trying to get a good image without success, especially when there are two or three other extremely cost-effective solutions that give me a lovely render without the need to construct my own.

Nick

quick question - so what have you been using throw these years for fur and why You just not choose that tool, why Houdini then ?

lor
Option 1: have an artist open up maya, spend two days grooming and render amazing looking fur.

Option 2: hire a Houdini TD team to work for three months designing a fur system that works. Then have an artists spend two days grooming and render amazing looking fur.

Nick

lor
My years of fur work was not in Maya. I have never used Maya fur in production.

Why Maya, Why Houdini? Why not Your software that u know the best and u have been working with for all these years?

tmdag
quick question - so what have you been using throw these years for fur and why You just not choose that tool, why Houdini then ?

Not that it's relevant, but we've used Sasquatch on eight films for fur. It used to be the most incredible fur rendering system in the world and is now completely obsolete. Why Houdini? It's amazingly powerful. I've seen things done with Houdini that blow my mind. And I am extremely frustrated that most artists have almost no access to that power. So I'm campaigning for more artist-friendly control WITHOUT removing any of the open-ness and power that already exists in the software for the hard-core TD types.

Houdini is so strong in many areas that affect fur, and it's big weakness is shading/rendering. So I'd like that improved. I'd LOVE to use Houdini to do my fur renders. Just can't right now.

lor
However, I would be very happy for someone who has worked with Houdini fur for a while to show me a simple, beautiful fur render like the maya one above. And then I'd love to see the settings that achieved it so I can learn.


Nick

Maybe if you use search button more often your experience with fur tools in Houdini would be different. here is some interesting link http://forums.odforce.net/index.php?/topic/8506-cat/page__hl__CAT__fromsearch__1 [forums.odforce.net]

Swann_
Maybe if you use search button more often your experience with fur tools in Houdini would be different. here is some interesting link http://forums.odforce.net/index.php?/topic/8506-cat/page__hl__CAT__fromsearch__1 [forums.odforce.net]

Wow, Swann_ that was a little harsh and presumptuous. Have I offended you in some way by asking for some tool improvements?

lor
Why Houdini? It's amazingly powerful. I've seen things done with Houdini that blow my mind. And I am extremely frustrated that most artists have almost no access to that power. So I'm campaigning for more artist-friendly control WITHOUT removing any of the open-ness and power that already exists in the software for the hard-core TD types.

I think that main power is within inside possibilities… and to use that power, You have to have some knowledge, without that knowledge how you would like to use its power? in presets? that is all about in any other software - presets u use.

why you need open-ness when don't know how to use it, don't have that knowledge and when you want to stick with presets?

Possibilities don't help me get shots finalled on time. Tools that enable artists to create great images fast help me get shots finalled on time.

lor
Possibilities don't help me get shots finalled on time. Tools that enable artists to create great images fast help me get shots finalled on time.

I agree, as so I think that Houdini is not the best software for getting project out of box without knowing how to use it.

lor
Have I offended you in some way by asking for some tool improvements?

I'm not ofended and I don't wanted ofend you, just we don't have to much topics about fur and since you heavn't found this my presumption was that you where not looking for it hard enougth. I just writed “fur” in odforce search and it was one of the links.

Chill out man .

lor
Possibilities don't help me get shots finalled on time. Tools that enable artists to create great images fast help me get shots finalled on time.

Houdini is a more TD tool, and TD makes tools for artists. If you choosed Houdini that means that you understand that nobody will do tools for you and you have to roll everything on you own.