Now, maybe it's my graphics card. Or possibly my OS. Could even be my driver. I could just be looking at it in the wrong way. Anyhow, Houdini has always seemed to be a little special when it came to GL related stuff.

The latest releases have added some great features that are fantastic.

BUT, to me and few others I've spoken to, the level of GL crappiness is a disgrace. Some nodes are becoming near impossible to use. Others are just not behaving as the used to. For example selecting geometry components is almost akin to voodoo. Rub together some cats paws and chicken gizzards and if the wind is blowing in the right direction you might be able to select two edges loops in a go. Switching between the different GL versions turns into a crapshoot as to which components may or may not work.

I've seen way cheaper software do this thing much better so it's not as though this stuff is a mystery.

I'm sure I'm not the only one experiencing this and likely it isn't the first time it's been brought up here, but perhaps if we made enough noise about it it might get bumped up the priority list and fixed some.

A very frustrated monkey

You should log a bug. When you do, you should include details you failed to mention in your message, like your graphics card, OS, and driver.
The version of Houdini that you were trying to run is always handy info too.
You might even mention which nodes are becoming impossible to use (aside from edge loop). You may have actually hit a bug or two, but without details, it's kinda hard for others to help you.

Trust me I have done. I'm very familiar with the whole process. I am more bemoaning the whole level of absurdity that has befallen us since H11.

It's actively getting better, the latest 12.5's especially so… which is not to say it's not sometimes frustrating but frustration is diminishing as the bugs are reported and fixed.

Th viewport is being actively worked on. More noise won't make things better faster, unfortunately. Bug reports are still the best way to go, as internal testing may not be using the same workflows as external users, so it's possible that certain issues are simply not known to us. Edge loops, for example - I haven't heard anything about that. However, that sounds more like an underlying geometry issue than a viewport one.

H12.5 has significantly improved the GL3 renderer, though the other renderers are in about the same state as 12.0. That's about all the time we had available for a half-release, given the Alembic and VDB support requirements.

Actually from my point of view, more noise is helpful because it helps make us aware that there is an issue within the community. Bug reports are essential to solve the problem, but it doesn't hurt to talk about it on the forums. That is what they are here for.

Specific information about system, graphics card and driver are important to allow us to determine if this is a new issue or a recurring one. It would also be helpful to hear from other artists to find out if this is a larger issue or an isolated one tied to particular cards/drivers.

Robert

I'm not saying people shouldn't post issues they're having – quite the opposite, in fact. If it weren't for the forums, I would be thinking that everything is relatively fine out there with the viewport. There is currently a huge discrepancy between the general satisfaction with the viewport on the forums and the bug reports we are receiving. Going by bug reports alone, it would seem that there are only isolated issues.

My point is that the current priority is resolving issues in the viewport, and more noise can't really increase that any further. However, specific information or bug reports will help these be resolved faster, and that's what we need. Much like circus_monkey's post [sidefx.com].

There have been over 30 updates to 12.5 for the viewport alone since release. It's being worked on.

Thanks ! I must admit I have been having a number of issues with OSX and Houdini > interface / view port related, all the time I email support so that we can get the developers alerted.

Rob

I've submitted good sized chunks of bug reports on OGL issues and SESI support is always super quick to reply and investigate. Several bugs that I submitted were fixed within a couple of weeks so that's amazing and SESI deserves huge kudos for being so accessible and responsive. When I get a bit of time I will submit another round of reports, but for right now, I will add just a bit more noise. First of all, I'm glad some of the advanced lighting features are back in the viewport. It looks really spiffy and is much closer to final scene lighting than the normal display modes. Very slick.

I must be one of the few people who does all their modeling in Houdini. That's been the case since version 5 when Houdini gained the new poly-modeling tools. For the most part I've always been pretty happy, because even though other applications may be more tailored towards modeling or have quicker workflows, none of them have the flexibility of a SOPnet. To me that's a huge plus. In version 12 some of the viewport functionality started breaking, and now, I'm finding that modeling in 12.5 is pretty much nightmare mode. This is on linux, mac and pc. So that's where things currently stand from my experience. I realize that this doesn't help the devs solve problems, so yes, bug reports will be forthcoming.

I have a question which I hope will not offend: Do any of the interns at the SESI offices do extensive modeling with Houdini? The internal testing that's being performed may very well be different from user workflows. Sometimes things don't manifest until you've sat down and worked on a model for a bit. For example that ancient bug where snapping stops working on highlighted geometry.

Cheers

DaJuice expressed it perfectly.

Often things don't manifest immediately. The problem here is we try to log a bug and the reply comes back that “we can't reproduce the problem”. Eventually it becomes frustrating logging these issues, as in the snapping to highlighted points bug.

It's frustrating when a product which once worked reasonably well doesn't any more. SESI comes across as quite happy to release sub-standard software. It's almost a running joke in the community. It shouldn't be.

There really does need to be more robust QC before you unleash such major overhauls.

jesta
DaJuice expressed it perfectly.

Often things don't manifest immediately. The problem here is we try to log a bug and the reply comes back that “we can't reproduce the problem”. Eventually it becomes frustrating logging these issues, as in the snapping to highlighted points bug.

It's frustrating when a product which once worked reasonably well doesn't any more. SESI comes across as quite happy to release sub-standard software. It's almost a running joke in the community. It shouldn't be.

There really does need to be more robust QC before you unleash such major overhauls.

I am sorry to hear your issues but how on earth can you expect SESI to fix something if they cannot reproduce the issue you are having.
A running joke in the industry ?, you must be thinking about some other 3d application. I have nothing but praise for the SESI approach, Ive been hit with production road blocks and got fixes the next day, when Ive been working as a one man band on jobs, name me another company that will turn round fixes like that ! .

Rob

DaJuice
I'm finding that modeling in 12.5 is pretty much nightmare mode. This is on linux, mac and pc.

If you go to Preferences > Scene Renderer > H11 do these issues you mention go away or are they still there?

rmagee

DaJuice
I'm finding that modeling in 12.5 is pretty much nightmare mode. This is on linux, mac and pc.

If you go to Preferences > Scene Renderer > H11 do these issues you mention go away or are they still there?

I have found that each of the 3D Viewport Scene Renderers have their own sets of problems. No one of them is a good solution for all situations. The problems seem to come up only after a certain amount of time working in the viewport, and they are usually difficult to reliably reproduce and package up for a decent bug report.
However, if you speak to other houdini users and describe the problem they often know what you mean, such as:
“you know that problem where you're tumbling and the viewport freezes up for a bit then your shaded geometry just disappears and your wireframe objects lose their wireframe color”
“oh yeah, I get that at least 2 or 3 times a day”

Most of these problems are not the kind of bugs that can be simply or reliably reproduced and packaged, but they are well known and familiar to those who use the viewport for object or geometry work for more than a few minutes of testing on simple geometry. I think this is why questions like “Do any of the interns at the SESI offices do extensive modeling with Houdini?” get asked, because these problems seem to come up regularly during extended use but seldom during a short session.

I understand that twod is doing a ton of bug swatting, but fact is the viewport interaction has been so broken for so long that one hardly knows where to begin trying to help him getting it fixed.
I hold little hope of getting results with bug reports of problems that cannot be reliably reproduced except by saying “just model and rig something complex for half an hour and you'll see it eventually”, and so I often don't report. Perhaps there are many others who feel likewise, and perhaps this explains the “ huge discrepancy between the general satisfaction with the viewport on the forums and the bug reports”

I would welcome suggestions as to how twod and side effects would like users to handle these “comes up often but unreliably after working for a while” type bugs. Perhaps report it anyway with the best most detailed description I can come up with? I dunno.

What I do know is I share jesta's frustration and dismay.

I think one thing that is very useful is a vidcap. I did this for a viewport selection issue, and once twod saw it, he fixed it directly. However, he had to see _everything_ that was being used vis a vis workflow, desktops, etc etc.

One problem is that interns (as far as I can tell) get taught to use Houdini that isn't really in line with how a lot of people actually use it. Show Selected SOP is on by default in a vanilla Houdini but that's not how Houdini actually gets used a lot of the time. No “right or wrong” but heavy production scenes are deadly if Show Selected is turned on.

Likewise, SESI's demos tend to apply Materials to an Object whereas a lot of real-world use is a Material SOP with many (100's) of Materials being applied at the SOP level. Again no right or wrong (I'm sure there are places that apply at the Object level) but this is a fundamental thing to the viewport's display of things.

So, my experience has been: if it's something that is consistent for _you_ then once you can show SESI the issue it's fixable and of course they are tops at fixing stuff.

Cheers,

Peter B

The problem here is we try to log a bug and the reply comes back that “we can't reproduce the problem”. Eventually it becomes frustrating logging these issues, as in the snapping to highlighted points bug.

It's not just frustrating for you. What an “unable to reproduce” response normally says is that given the information, we cannot reproduce the problem. Rather than taking this as a bug rejection, consider it a dialogue between user and developer (often when just posting a comment requesting more information, the comment is ignored). I personally do not like marking bugs UTR, as it means that there is an issue out there someone is having that I don't know how to fix. I would much rather patch it and move on

The viewport definitely is challenging with the variety of workflow and preferences that can make replicating a problem a headache. This is one of the reasons that attaching a hip file, even as a starting point, is a good idea as many of the preferences are saved to it.

There is a fix in the development head baseline that will likely clear up the missing/ghosted geometry. It requires a bit more testing before I'm willing to backport it, as changes to that area are “sensitive”.

nobodyinparticular

rmagee

DaJuice
I'm finding that modeling in 12.5 is pretty much nightmare mode. This is on linux, mac and pc.

If you go to Preferences > Scene Renderer > H11 do these issues you mention go away or are they still there?

I have found that each of the 3D Viewport Scene Renderers have their own sets of problems.

That has been my experience as well. My first instinct was to switch back to the old viewport and get on with it, but they have issues as well (meaning it was more reliable in H11).

I think one thing that is very useful is a vidcap.

I think that's a great idea Peter.
I was looking for a way to display mouse-clicks and key strokes on linux for video captures and stumbled upon this little gem:
http://code.google.com/p/key-mon/ [code.google.com]
Ignore the missing cursor, that's ksnapshot being stubborn.


I does sound like we as users need to be more vigilant with the bug reports. I've definitely procrastinated on submitting them on occasion.

and please fix or do sth about ridicilously low fps on 2+ mil poly scenes with state of the art high end amd consumer video cards, 25 mil polygons 10fps+ in maya hd7590 , 2.5 mil polygons, 2+ fps in Houdini ???? ..