Continuing the ongoing endeavour of making Houdini artist friendlier.

alt key has been discussed for quite a bit, however I feel that there are still a few things to say and more importantly, do.
In the hope of improving the viewport interaction I propose that Houdini will get two options (drop-down list?) in Houdini Prefs > 3d viewports as follows:

Interaction style:
1. Houdini (default&recommended)
2. Maya

The user can be prompted to choose one or the other when first opening Houdini as is with learning movies and whatnot.

Houdini style is what we currently have and whatever else will be added/changed.
This will free up the alt key for various operations - having one extra modifier key will greatly improve viewport interactions/operations.

Maya style - lots of applications have different interaction modes and since Maya (for better or worse) is an industry standard, many apps will have this.
My app of choice, Softimage, has it too. Mudbox IRC has a few interaction models as well and I'm sure other non-Adsk programs also have them.
This will obviously come with the alt nav. key, Space for viewport max/min, F8, F9, F10 for components. WER for trans. rot. scale, and the rest. Maya users know them better. As is in Softimage, Maya interaction style will not be possible to reproduce exactly since we're dealing with a different app. Some things will inevitably comply to Houdini's workflow.

Back to Houdini style: two keys for nav. needs to go as it is a huge waste IMO.
Maximize/minimize viewport could be mapped to Esc key for example (since this would be a 3rd way to access the viewtool*), Space+'B' being not as easily performed and could remapped for another operation used with less frequency.
* to activate the viewtool in a non-trans. mode could be achieved by tapping (instead of holding) the assigned key (Space), there's no need to have yet another key for this (currently Esc)

So what say you about this two interaction modes proposal, nay or yay?

You can turn off Alt key navigation already and use that key for something else.


So, big no as it would become huge confusion for current users.
and event bigger for the new ones.

I can't see any benefit in it at all

Houdini mapping is quite (enough) similar to maya already.

Imagine when somebody new to Houdini watch a tutorial, then see a usage of keyboard shortcut. And that shortcut do completely different thing as tutorial was recorder with one mapping and user has different (maya) mapping.

I can see those troubles in XSI almost every other day. When my colleagues change default mapping of XSI to Maya and then try to ask how to do something. I will tell them XSI shortcut and it… doesn't work. They want to explain something, I hit some familiar keys and it goes wrong as they are mapped to completely different things.

I still think that there was Maya keyboard mapping in XSI only to ease the future transition to Maya (btw. same Maya mapping is in the 3ds Max, but there isn't any 3ds Max or XSI mapping in Maya… do the conclusions yourself :wink: )

Alt key as navigation is good bonus, but having two completely different mapping will add a lot of confusion.

Esc key is terminator for any cooking, that muscle memory is hard to remove I would like keep it that way.

And from ergonomy view, Esc key is too far away from both Alt and Spacebar, so it doesn't make any sense to map viewport functionality that far from viewport navigation keys (it similar as in XSI's F12 was too far away from S key)).

My hand usually rest around U/I area, so rotate/move hand to the Esc key (without getting away from Alt/Space) for viewport would became quickly unpleasant.

In Maya there is space bar for viewport full screen, Space+B is close enough and make sense with Space as Viewport tool switcher.




You can do your own Maya 1:1 mapping for Houdini. So do it, share the mapping and if anybody want it, they can use it instead of the default mapping.

I would be really confused (and sad) if Space(bar) navigation and Esc (termination/escaping) mapping would be removed/changed.

btw: I'm really like that I and U keys stayed in H14.


What I'm still missing are “sticky” /transient keys. And I would personally remap “Ins” pivot to transient Alt. But that's my taste (from XSI) only.

You say if I uncheck “use alt…” from prefs I can use alt for anything?
(rhetorical question, the answer is “no”)

Esc key is pretty close to the resting hand and it doesn't require taking your look off the screen as space+b does.
As a side note what does Esc has to do with cooking? Does it bother you right now? Because you know, Esc key, when not cooking does something else anyway. And even if changing Esc key function had interfered with cooking, how many times does one has to stop cooking compared to a modeler switching viewports? Are we still hung up on the FX side of Houdini?

edit:
Almost forgot - I care as little about Maya as you do if not less, but I'm thinking of the reason SESI decided to introduce alt for nav. in the first place and that has to do with to with satisfying Maya/Max users at some level.

With this in mind, I say why not clearly differentiate between these two interaction models and benefit from the advantages of getting the full functionality of the alt key? I don't see as a bonus having two keys next to each other doing the same thing for neither the “original” Houdini user nor the “stranger”.

IIRC Alt was for for moving objects off the construction plane and that functionality was still there if Alt for Navigation was turned off in preferences.

It seems it's no longer true and that function is now under Shift key.
Alt still can be mapped as modifier key without any problem.

There are still keyboard mapping utilities that can help you remap every key on your keyboard if you need

Esc key interrupts cooking, and yes, I use it quite a lot. Much more then I'm switching to the full screen/viewport. Even during modeling.

I like alt key as convenient navigation key for users switching often between Maya/Houdini.

Btw.: Go to the Hotkey Manager: /Houdini/Panes/Geometry Viewers/Operations/View Operation > Toggle Single/Quad and add Esc key to Assigned Keys

Also remove Esc key from View Tool (under /Houdini/Panes/Geometry Viewers/Operations)

Quick setup and you have your Esc key for switching set up. Enjoy

:wink:

On Esc:
There are some operations even while modelling that the Escape key is a life saver. Making heavy tweaks up the chain, to applying operations to large datasets. It can also be used to stop the IPR when lighting and rendering. It is the goto button to stop things and it's not just for FX.

On Alt:
I agree that it's redundant for viewport navigation, it's the first thing I turn off and I've come to like the fact that my thumb is relaxed on Space rather than tensed under my index finger for navigation. Having it available for other operations would be great. *Edit: When first learning Houdini from Maya, sure Alt was a sore spot but that eventually went away, haha.

Edit2: Space+B is a non-issue now with Space+1,2,3,4 working and remembering where the view was last.

However for layout and scene assembly, I would like to see (if not possible already) to have Space+# to retain a link and lock to a Camera if it was set. This may be a case where Space+B is still preferred. I seem to still have issues with Space+B not recognizing the current viewport the mouse is over for maximizing. Is it intended to require a click to activate a viewport? This would cause problems with losing your current selection.

@pezetko I know I can assign the Esc to viewport max/min (I thank you for the info anyway), but I'm talking about defaults that make better sense which especially important for newcomers. Current users are old enough dogs to be able to customize however they want a thing which they already do I'm guessing

@Gyroscope You aware that Esc key, when in the “right context”, already does something other than Stopping various computations, right? All I'm saying is that that “something other” be what I proposed - viewport max/min instead of viewtool in perma mode.

Which brings me to another issue: the viewtool has to stop intruding. I cannot give an accurate sequence of steps, but I end up many times having the viewtool active w/o intention.
(Frankenstein tool I'm looking at you too!!)

I seem to still have issues with Space+B not recognizing the current viewport the mouse is over for maximizing. Is it intended to require a click to activate a viewport? This would cause problems with losing your current selection.

I think the issue is that you're required to first release Space before issuing another viewport switch command. This doesn't always work either. Leaving aside the not so inspired default shortcut the viewport switch is broken.

Hi,

An old XSI user here.

I would like to make a case for taking a look at Blender's interface. Yes. Blender. Please, let me test your patience for a while, and tell you why I consider Blender's interface brilliant.

The big idea is every operation stays LIVE until you commit to the changes you've made. Up to then you can modify the operation by interactively adding and tweaking parameters. There is almost no need for mouse interaction with menus, buttons and such - all the modifiers are available through mouse actions (roll the mouse roll) or simple hotkeys.

For example:

To rotate a cube 45 degrees in local Y axis, press:
- R (start rotating immediately in screen space by moving the mouse)
- YY (choose the local Y axis)
- 45 (enter the value numerically)
- Enter / Click

To scale a cube freely in global X and Y axis, but not Z, press:
- S
- shift+Z, no, wait, you want to exclude X after all, so shift+X
- move the mouse to achieve the desirable scale
- if you decide to enter the value numerically after all, type the number
- Enter / Click

No enters necessary to confirm any intermediate choice in the process, no clicks, no mouse moves to switch stuff on or off. All this time the mouse pointer stays just where it needs to be - over your desired component / object. You never break the flow to go to a menu and click a bunch of options. Well, you can, but you almost never need to.

Same thing with everything. So when you inset you can interactively control the depth of extrusion, inset amount. When you bevel, you can control the depth and amount of added loops, etc, usually with mouse roll, or mouse move + Ctrl or shift or whatever.

In the mean time you can easily activate and tweak snap, soft selection, etc.

Every common option is at your fingertips. Choose the center of S/R/T from a single-key shortcut. Press U and UV menu appears under the mouse pointer, press W to get special modeling options like weld (Fuse), and so on. You get the idea.

Anyway's that's my two cents. Houdini is almost there (with tab menu), but still I feel it lacks the “adding-and-tweaking-parameters-interactively” part so I do lots of stuff by typing in the parameter window. I'm a Houdini noobie, so please do correct me if I'm wrong in any of this.

As a (kind of) new Houdini user I find Houdini's interaction perfectly apt for its paradigm. I do not think Maya interaction would suit everything in Houdini. I agree that users can customize the key mapping to their liking. Even as a new user I wouldn't want Houdini's interaction style to change. It is perfect for Houdini.
As a response to Blender's interaction style, I find it much more intuitive than Maya's style and it is seriously fast once you get used to it.

I would love to see an unified extrude+inset+bevel interface

You press E (just an example) to start extruding selected faces (no need to click anything, just drag the mouse to achieve desired depth. Press and hold control or whatever to control the inset, also just by dragging the mouse. Also control bevel repetitions by using the mouse wheel, and bevel depth with shift (example).

This way you can have just the inset with no depth, extrusion with no inset, extrusion with inset and bevel, etc, all in one nifty tool. This kind of interface makes for very fast modeling.

Filip Tarczewski what 3d software have similar functionality? Need some example to view it in action…

I like context sensitive shortcuts.

Press C for connect:
- if two edges selected, create polygon
- if two points, create line
- if more than two points, create polygon
- if two polygons, create bridge

vux
Filip Tarczewski what 3d software have similar functionality? Need some example to view it in action…

Blender has extrure+inset, and a separate bevel that works like i described - mouse wheel controls the number of edge loops, and mouse move controls the depth. That's how most things work there - initiate the tool, feed it arguments by one-letter hotkeys or mouse (or don't), control additional stuff with mouse+Ctrl/shift/whatever, tweak values, confirm.

There was a unified extrude+inset+bevel written for XSI as well, with a great video presentation, I will try to find it. I'm not sure, but i think Modo could have something like this as well.
EDIT: Here it is:
http://www.si-community.com/community/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1717 [si-community.com]
Nevermind the actual hotkeys used, or the description at all, the big idea is that everything is controllable with mouse and keyboard modifiers without leaving the viewport to tweak things in parameter windows. Notice how fast this workflow is. No need to choose polyextrude/bevel/inset for every selection - you're in the appropriate modeling mode and just click once for every operation.

Cinema has viewport mouse control for bevel, but slightly less ergonomic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rnvvk8_llp8 [youtube.com]
It allows you to control bevel depth in the viewport and more, but it requires clicking, holding and dragging. It is much better for the hand if you just initiate the process by pressing a hotkey, and then just move the mouse and confirm when you're done.

Speaking of the devil - from what I've seen Cinema's new bevel seems far superior to the one in Houdini (no offense), so that's another area things could be improved.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5G_EMc0M6Q [youtube.com]

Again, I am a noob, so please correct me if I'm talking rubbish.

Ok, so I see Houdini does have some mouse control for additional parameters - you can control bevel depth by pressing MMB and dragging for instance. Mouse wheel is left unused, so linking number of repetitions to it could be pretty unintrusive to the current order of things.

Filip Tarczewski
I would like to make a case for taking a look at Blender's interface. Yes. Blender. Please, let me test your patience for a while, and tell you why I consider Blender's interface brilliant.

Sounds like a vim interface in 3d. I don't mind having options for accurate modeling (proper snapping, etc.) but honestly I doubt “brilliant” is the word.

Well, ok. It's just a word ;] I just happen to think it's the most ergonomic interface for viewport work, including XSI.

The thing that does it is the very intuitive hotkey system, and the concept I mentioned before - being able to modify actions, while doing them, with additional parameters activated by context-dependent hotkeys or mouse actions.

So you can:
- change views, switch from ortho to perspective
- change operation center
- choose axis of operation and coordinate system
- enter precise values
- activate snap and restrict it to an axis/plane
- activate and tweak soft selection
- change selection modes
- merge and fuse components
- …

and so on, never leaving the viewport or interrupting the flow. Almost everything can be done with one-three key presses, and the hotkeys quickly become second nature.

By the way, if you can do the same in Houdini (i only know how to do some of these things) - my apologies, and please do let me know how. I love Houdini and plan to use it for all my future work.

And now, I think I've already said my piece, practically hijacking the thread in the process ;] So, one more time - I recommend looking at Blender's interface if you're interested in improving viewport/tool interaction. And now my mouth is shut ;-)

Hi Filip

Filip Tarczewski
To rotate a cube 45 degrees in local Y axis, press:
- R (start rotating immediately in screen space by moving the mouse)
- YY (choose the local Y axis)
- 45 (enter the value numerically)
- Enter / Click


To scale a cube freely in global X and Y axis, but not Z, press:
- S
- shift+Z, no, wait, you want to exclude X after all, so shift+X
- move the mouse to achieve the desirable scale
- if you decide to enter the value numerically after all, type the number
- Enter / Click

I'm sorry but I see no improvement here over the existing Houdini, XSI, maya, etc ones.
In Softimage for example (as you probably know) you simply hold shift in order to activate an angular snap (set in trans. prefs.). Or you simply type the value in its corresponding axis box.
As for the scale one simply uses the gizmo to “exclude” one axis, by scaling in the perpendicular plane. Typing a number for scale is so rarely used in (character) modeling that it's pretty irrelevant how you do it as far as I'm concerned. I personally never scale at object level.

I must admit that I'm rather surprised that you like Blender workflow being an Softie. Blender has so many awkward and necessary workflows that the lots of veteran users call for an overhaul.

Take a look here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYiiD-p2q80 [youtube.com]
A video I wholeheartedly recommend for SESI devs. as well.

As far as the other suggestions, since they call for a more interactive viewport workflow, I'd say that overall are good things to consider and refine and see how they could be integrated into Houdini's paradigm.
Cheers!

Honestly McNistor that Andrew video is rubbish.

I use Blender a lot lately for modelling, and it is GREAT experience. What Filip talked IS improvement. I am 2x faster with Blender than any other app I used before.

But I guess it is preference.

It's a matter of preference I guess. The idea of telling the software precisely what I want to do in a quick keyboard combo, Mortal Kombat style, is appealing to me and works really well for me in practice. Just by typing G, YY, 2 or S, shift+Z my job is done. That's why I love TAB menus - no searching in menus all over the interface - type what you want and get it.

Personally I never use gizmos anymore. Since I can immediately choose the axis for every operation and I don't have to click anywhere to begin the operation, gizmos make sense only for reference - they show me where the pivot is and which way is which.

In Blender, when you go through the initial culture shock and learn the hotkeys, you realize that having icons and menus for most things in the GUI is no longer necessary. They do serve their purpose informing you what mode you are in, but you never actually touch them with the mouse. It is crucial to be able to do so for new users, since they don't know any hotkeys, but when you're already in you barely ever touch buttons on screen.

Also the workflow I'm describing isn't by any means restricted to object level transforms. It works the same when you operate on components, in UV view, etc.

People do have genuinely different tastes. For instance, lots of people consider Modo's viewport navigation amazing (tumble view instead of turntable, also default in Blender i believe). Perhaps it is, but I have always hated it, and i still do. Same thing with maya radial menus - not my cup of tea. But who am I to tell people they are wrong?

On the other hand, I also think we are creatures of habit, and sometimes it prevents us from discovering convenient solutions. For instance I really hated that Houdini uses spacebar for navigation. Now i love it! Alt style navigation seems so bad now (also in Blender, and so does XSI's psoz system). Same thing with Apple's keyboard - control next to space?! Are they nuts? Turns out it's very convenient - you use the thumb for most of the hotkeys. I feel that this factor contributes the most to people's hate of Blender's interface. Habits and lack of clear, concise documentation. I tried to learn Blender 3 or four times and hated it every time, until I got tips and answers from a friend who used it on a daily basis, and explained the philosophy to me.

I recommend it to everyone ever since. I do really think that the ergonomy of the hotkeys, viewport and tool interaction are better than in XSI (or any other software I know for that matter). Of course Blender's tools are laughable compared to XSI's, but all the manual work in Blender is just lightning fast and really pleasant.

Sorry if I come out as a Blender evangelist of sorts, I am not a fanboy, and I do love Houdini. Not trying to say Blender is better that other software, just saying it's worth a look IMO.

@SreckoM I appreciate your honesty I wouldn't have it any other way. I obviously disagree with your statement.

@Filip

You say you're an old XSI user and I don't bring that into question, but like the saying “doing the right thing for the wrong reason” I get the feeling that whatever you use/d Softimage for is/was for things that have nothing to do with its workflow and that's fine of course, I just think it's worth mentioning this for relevance, if I'm right about my feeling that is.

I am confused about something which could very well be my fault: you seem to appreciate tools that are very interactive (bevels and whatnot) yet you then say you don't use gizmos. I'm very curious to see how you model complex geometry without the use of gizmos. Speaking for myself here, it would probably take me 10x more time to model something by moving points using the Numeric Pad instead of gizmos. 10x is probably optimistic.


Anyway, talk is cheap they say. If we are to bring Houdini in the present day with its modeling and overall interaction we need to focus on specifics and that means that we need to bring tools into focus, clearly explain how they work and why they're not good and what are the alternatives. With pictures, jpegs and gifs.
Search for threads started by me to see what I mean, they start with H15.