Constantin X
If one finds out Houdini to be so much different that it can't use it in first hour, it's a dead duck.

Yes. That´s why nobody in the industry uses ZBrush for sculpting.

Thank you for mentioning Genoma and linking the video here!

jason_iversen
Just to throw this in the mix, I thought this looked like a friendly, slick system in Lightwave “Genoma” - which has some autorig-style concepts presented with simple, powerful, clean rigs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfut_KXamKw [youtube.com]

Lino Grandi

LightWave3D Group

owlYzarc

Relax, nobody is asking you anything, at least not me. It's not like i am asking your permission to propose software improvements. It's your right to discuss it if you think it's good or bad, but in a polite manner. It's my right and i am using it either you like it or not. Looks though like i am not explaining very clear what is it that i want, what i am asking for. So i will try to explain in a manner you guys might understand what you miss now or what is that i want.
In your sample file, select nodes geo1 and geo4 and collect them in a new subnet(let's call it subnet3) node situated in the obj context, not null so we can get over this. Do this in network editor, and then do it inside Tree View with one click -ah, you can't. So now you need to go inside subnet1, then dive inside subnet2 cut your node geo4, go back to obj and paste; then go again inside subnet1 and cut geo1 node, go back to obj and paste. Then select both nodes geo1 and geo4 and colapse them inside the new subnet. Don't you think there are a bit too many steps? In a scene with 30-40 objects it's a total disaster. Not to mention in a network with dozens of nodes inside different nodes. What if i want to move an object from inside a subnet to other subnet in other context? How many steps? This is how it is now.
Now imagine that you could select items in Tree View and click shift+c(or whatever) and they are all grouped in a new subnet(i am not going to say null again) inside the context i select. And now i can take this new subnet and drag/drop it over the context i want(say from obj to part). Ahaaa, only two steps now - in production it's called efficiency and it's used in factories, for example, to cut execution time and increase productivity and decrease costs. So, for the last time, i am talking about scene management(like ordering objects, grouping and moving them in different positions in the stack, moving objects between different contexts etc) in as few steps as possible; without using network editor in order to avoid unnecessary steps and speed up production time. Hope now it's clear. peace

lisux

Constantin X
Play nice, I am not shouting.

Don't worry, just read my last post for what i mean, i explained it better in there. I too believe Houdini is superior to any other software, this is why i m here. I am talking about reducing the number of steps you need to do in order to organize your scene. Again, read my reply to ‘owlYzarc’ and you will understand.

Hey Constantine X - perhaps you don't realise it but you're flip-flopping saying ‘relax, don’t worry', then ‘you must improve this software otherwise I’ll go to the Maya corner'. This good cop-bad cop routine confuses and tires everyone. It's your right, sure, but you're efficiency in effective argument is at the same level you have labelled Houdini scene management tools.

Others have asked for better modelling and UV tools and with logical explanation we have all listened and contributed. Are you able to do the same? Perhaps start a new post labelled something like ‘Mission Improve Scene Management’

If you don't care for other forum users opinions and just want to speak to developers, the best method is the Request Feature Enhancement(RFE) in the Support menu above, not the public forum.

From your videos and long explanations you are suggesting giving us layers. Layers in nodal programs appear to be a strange and foreign concept, unfortunately you are speaking to The Layer-Escapees. !

I see and agree with his point. He's asking for Outliner type functionality.
More management capabilities in List/Tree View, it was lightly brushed upon in the modelling thread or was it the SI Guide thread… Tree View vs List view.

Tree View lets you navigate your file. List view lets you manage a few options.

But no pane as far as I can tell is there for you to organize. You cant create a subnet from selected items in List View. You can't move one item from one subnet to another in Tree or List view. Unless you can and I can't find it.

I agreed in the modelling thread, that Tree View and List view should be combined, coupled Constantine-X's suggested organizing capabilities. If you drag one item onto another, you parent it. If you drag it onto an expanded subnet folder, you move it to that subnet.

Gyroscope
But no pane as far as I can tell is there for you to organize. You cant create a subnet from selected items in List View. You can't move one item from one subnet to another in Tree or List view. Unless you can and I can't find it.

That's how I understand it too, and I completely agree with the request.

Ideally there should be some indication if re-arranging nodes, that have connections, that they will no longer be connected once moved around in the hierarchy.

MartybNz
Hey Constantine X - perhaps you don't realise it but you're flip-flopping saying ‘relax, don’t worry', then ‘you must improve this software otherwise I’ll go to the Maya corner'. !

I never said this in any of my post. I said that users around studios move to Maya because they can't understand Houdini way of doing things. It's a big difference between what i said and what you suggest. And i hate to see this because Houdini is better even for character animation. And no, i don't propose you layers, read my last post in witch i explain what i think it will be good for scene management improvements. Funny thing, i discuss about software but somehow users here try to discuss about me. I'm not badman folks! Sure i want veterans opinion, but at least try to read what i wrote before making any comments. If i did not wanted your opinion guys i would not have posted here. But let's try to be constructive. Have you downloaded the supplied file by the user owlYzarc and read my requirement of moving nodes in Tree View in the response to him? If not how can you comment? :wink: Because your comment is all about me, and nothing about suggested(this is the correct term, it's just a suggestion) improvements. No where in my posts i asked for layers(where did you get this one from???). Peace man

halfdan

Gyroscope
But no pane as far as I can tell is there for you to organize. You cant create a subnet from selected items in List View. You can't move one item from one subnet to another in Tree or List view. Unless you can and I can't find it.

That's how I understand it too, and I completely agree with the request.

Ideally there should be some indication if re-arranging nodes, that have connections, that they will no longer be connected once moved around in the hierarchy.

Finally some analytically mind around here! What i want is to be able to do scene management in the Tree View. I don't want to mess with the network editor functionality like users around here understood it wrong - it's perfect as it is right now.
Let's say i want to move one node from geo context to part context. Just a simple drag and drop into the Tree View. This way i am not cut - navigate -paste, just drag and drop. One step instead of three. Other example: i want to take one node from one subnet, combine it with other node from other subnet into a new subnet and then move the new subnet to geo context. Well, now i need to cut - paste and navigate a bunch of times. With suggested improvements in the Tree View i just select the two nodes and hit shift+C(or whatever) and then drag and drop new subnet over geo. So only 2 steps. And so on and so forth… So it's all about efficiency, like i learned working in a factory - as fewer steps as possible to do a certain job.
Thank you,
Constantin

My scene was in response to “i cant animate subnets, i cant hide like i could do it with nulls”.
I guess emotions took better of me, for that I am truly sorry.
Regarding mouse manipulations/rearrangements i said earlier - it would be great and offered a alternative until its implemented.

Shift+C works in list view while your mouse is over list view (Houdini is sensitive to that, and if in Maya you have to click/press button to focus on the window/pane, in Houdini - hovering mouse is enough)

Constantin X
Finally some analytically mind around here!

hmm.. You do realise that HalfDan is a former SI programmer and the so-called “analytically mind” is in reality a SI mindset.

If you apply your factory efficiently arguments to your written argument and you might convince more of us.

MartybNz
hmm.. You do realise that HalfDan is a former SI programmer and the so-called “analytically mind” is in reality a SI mindset.

The ‘d’ is lower case. It's a real name. Don't upset my mom

whoops ops: I Wikipedia'd Halfdan; you have ancient legendary king blood too

MartybNz

Constantin X
Finally some analytically mind around here!

hmm.. You do realise that HalfDan is a former SI programmer and the so-called “analytically mind” is in reality a SI mindset.
If you apply your factory efficiently arguments to your written argument and you might convince more of us.

So now a senior SideFx programmer is wrong too. And because he agrees to the proposed scene management changes his mind is not analytically but ‘SI mindset’. Again, comments about person instead of proposed improvements. Sorry to tell you but you are way out of line with your comments. And i've seen the same attacks on the modeling improvements forum to the thread starter. I don't know how to put it gently, but you guys had all the time in the world to contribute to the software improvements in all the years you where here. You react like this software is your baby and no one is allowed to touch it. Guess what? We like this software and we try to contribute to it with improvements as much as we can. I am sure some of you contribute it to the software greatness as it is right now, but this actually makes an argument against this type of behavior. Why don't you try to use your energy in a more positive way, like contributing with a real fact to the discussion instead of attacking and insulting anyone here? Don't worry i had enough convincing you guys and replying to personal attacks, i am out of here for a looong time. I am sure you veteran folks will do much better contributing to the software improvements then a rookie like me could ever do.

Hey Constantin,

The Houdini community is very helpful and friendly if treated with respect to their culture. Getting an idea across in written form is not always interpreted in one certain way, that's how it evolves into a discussion where things can heat up. Especially with language and cultural differences.

As Halfdan ‘got the idea’ all is good and no further ‘off topic’ comments necessary.

Thank you for your time,

Andy

Sorry to see you go Constantin. The 'Inter-Net' is nick-named the 'Argument-Net' for good reason

Every forum I know of looks like this these days, with robust argument, the regulars that hang out, people getting offended that then join the hordes of non-logged-in outside readers.

This was quick.

Andy58
The Houdini community is very helpful and friendly if treated with respect to their culture. Getting an idea across in written form is not always interpreted in one certain way, that's how it evolves into a discussion where things can heat up. Especially with language and cultural differences.

Maybe I didn't spell it out quite clearly in my initial forum post, but my intention was that folks from other packages could come here and voice their ideas freely without judgement. Obviously, in this case, SI users, seeing as they have been abandoned by the curator of their software-of-choice. Now, moving forward, we'll probably rename the forum to fully embrace curious minds from other packages.

That said, it is understood that workflow in other packages is different from Houdini's. It was the intention here to attempt to figure out which differences make people hesitant to adopt Houdini as their package of choice. A big part of that is allowing new/potential users to have a clear voice as to what makes them go “wtf?” and what makes them go “that's awesome”.

If awesome, we can pat ourselves on the back and feel pleased. However, with the “wtf?” part, we'd like to see if there are ways to improve the software, without losing sight of what truly makes Houdini Houdini, and in the process make it a more attractive choice to non-users.

It's ok if the ideas are sometimes a little strange-sounding, we (SideFX) aren't just going to run off to our computers to implement them, just because they've been typed out on a forum. As with any other software endeavour, we'll be judging them based on their merit and how well they mesh into the existing architecture/system/spirit/ethos.

We will all benefit from that. There's a lot of things old-time Houdini users have gotten very much accustomed to; things which might be completely sub-optimal to begin with.

However, for that to work out, I'd like to request a little bit more understanding on our behalf, the Houdini community, and a little more civility from both sides.

So, please, from now on let's act as if we're grown-ups. We're all in this together. Mmmmkay?

Thanks Halfdan -

Looking through the posts - it appears any high-user of the forums, with posts > ~90 will more likely react defensively.

If we could filter out a forum when hitting ‘View Posts Since Last Visit’ that would induce a natural delay, so a discussion can take place.

Can we RFE that please

I hope I didn't come across defensive or not open to suggestions to improvement. I myself am a long time Softimage user and here to learn. I wrote the above from the impression I got after many months of reading here and odforce.

However I felt the discussion lost its tone.

Andy