Hi,

I am quite puzzled by a decision to deprecate Mantra Surface and rename it to classic in favor of Principled Shader.

Disney PBR is an unfortunate, botched attempt and standardized material workflow, which is vastly inferior to a traditional uber shader workflow seen for example in VrayMTL, CoronaMTL, Redshift Standard material, Arnold standard material, and so on. Pretty much any successful renderer still uses the traditional model, and Disney principled shader is actually losing popularity.

For example, out of the box, there is no way to separate refraction from reflection roughness. I know it's supposed to be cool, that those parameters are technically correctly linked, but we all know what an incredible rendertime killer rough refractions are.

I know that the Mantra Surface is available through the search box deep in a pile of all the other deprecated things, but I think it should be returned back into Generic section of material gallery and sit proudly next to the inferior Principled shaders.

Many new users may mistakenly assume that Houdini does not have any capable default material at it's disposal, and that what you are stuck with is just the clumsy failed Disney's attempt at material standard.

I don't think renaming the Mantra surface to ‘Classic Shader’ makes it deprecated. The classic shader is still supported, and is not very changed from previous iterations. If you want separate controls for everything, or to optimize refract roughness, the power is there.

My point is that it's gone from the material gallery. If you are a new user, and you just take a look at the list of materials Houdini shows in material gallery, you are under impression it has only Principled material.

Hello
How can I search inside the Material Library to add Mantra Surface, or the “stone” material?
Where outside the Material Library can I find these 2 materials?
Thanks
Gz

Still trying to keep an open mind, but so far I'm liking the Principled shader less the more I use it. I've never felt so little control trying to get a “look” as I am with this thing.

Is this really the best SESI can come up with for an uber shader?

I somewhat agree. I have made an effort to use the principled shader lately just in order to actually put it through the ringer and I have a love hate relationship with it.

I like the immediate convenience of being able to plug in textures so rapidly and cleanly. Sometimes you have very strictly controlled assets that are calibrated and ready to go with the current lighting setups and color space. The inability to make even a simple tweak after loading it is unfortunate and I'd like to see some basic color controls for them in the gui like an expandable curve control for remapping or just basic color controls.

I found out there's no basic thin wall translucency so an entire effect is absent. The SSS model in general is a little basic and achieving a single scatter like effect is difficult.

The sheen parameter is a nice little tweak tool.

IMO it needs work but there's something there. SESI has hinted Mantra and rendering are next for improvements.

fgillis
Still trying to keep an open mind, but so far I'm liking the Principled shader less the more I use it. I've never felt so little control trying to get a “look” as I am with this thing.

Is this really the best SESI can come up with for an uber shader?

It's certainly not the best — it's simply the implementation of Disneys Principled shader that had been presented at siggraph some years ago. :-)

There's always the beloved Mantra surface which is called ‘classic’ shader.

Lots of voices raised their concern of a ‘principled’ only future for shaders. SESI listened and is not deprecating the ‘classic’ shader.

DOP, SOP, Hooray
Andy

I know this is a old topic, but following the “Particles Fun” tutorial I need to use the Mantra Surface shader.
Using the Material Palette Filter didn't find anything with this name or with Classic Shader.
I did find the Classic Shader in the Asset Library but didn't find a way to load it as material.

Edit: discovered I need to go to /mat, press tab, search for Classic and next drag to the window.

If you want to put the Classic Shader in the Material palette next to the Principled Material you just need to do a few simple steps:

1) Go to /mat and in the Network editor press tab > Classic Shader (Not Classic Shader Core). Place the node down.

2) RMB-click on the classicshader1 node and choose Save > To Gallery…

3) In the Edit Node Gallery Entry set the following:

Label: Classic Shader
Categories: Generic
Keywords: Classic Shader Mantra

(Mantra is the important keyword for it to be seen in the Palette)

Click Accept.

4) Now when you go to the Material Palette, you will find the Classic Shader in the Generic section of the Gallery.

You can use this method to add different versions of your materials with different settings to your Gallery

Thanks, this is useful.
I did have anyway a problem, Classic Shader didn't have the same structure the tutorial is changing in Mantra Surface as at 15:20 of the following video, do you think need I to use another shader more similar to Mantra Surface
https://vimeo.com/147505813#t=920s [vimeo.com]

Hi. Things got shuffled around a bit in Classic shader: The node “sssColor” that's referenced in the video tutorial (at 15:20 mark) is now called “sssDiffColor.”

Thanks for the directions rmgee, very useful. cheers.

Hi ,everyone

first of all i'm a beginner on this program. so now i'm using 16.5ver anyway. I'm try to do as you guy had a discuss before but that doesn't work with me.I have some issue about Mantra surface. from this tutorial （　https://vimeo.com/126886471 [vimeo.com]　） he create the nod that call “shopnet” and created “Material Shader Builder” and then he click on the gear on the right then click on “Mantra surface” but i don't have anything like that. Can you give me some advice? thank you.

Now you would go to /mat or create a node called Material Network then dive into this node. then you go to the Tools menu and choose Show Tool Palette. You can use the filter at the bottom to find “classic” and from the Shaders menu, you can choose Classic Shader. This should line you up with what is in the tutorial.

Shopnets were replaced with material networks because the mat networks are VOP based and allow for layered shaders.

Sorry if this has been already settled down but: what’s the current position of SideFX regarding the Classic Shader? Will it be deprecated some time in the future? Will it be developed and evolved along the principled shader? I have to say, as a Houdini newcomer, I’m liking more and more the classic shader (powerful, flexible) and agree the “classic” name doesn’t do it any good.