As we can see there are in the market 3dmax or Maya have more users then Houdini & for me i just bought it before 2 months ago i think .. and just doing well day by day but somtimes i realy stuck in it coz in my whole country there is not any training centre for houdini but alot of maya or 3dmax where i think its just coz of its very expensive one for others thats why we can see here shortage of houdini books and training Metrial (like trainid DVD or Books and all other stuff.) but on otherway there alot of users of maya and 3dmax and there users can get many books or data for their training… afcourse houdini have many features then others and kick as !!! anyway well i think they they should have to realese Training DVD's and Books. Arrange Classes on Worldwide Level & other Stuff kind's Advertising - Training Metrial is Very Good in i Help Menu but sometimes a new user realy stuck in it as i do many times …. although not too many users infact what makes you people think ?

There is no such thing as expensive, if you can make a money out of it .
About the price, check the list again

Select Modeling | Lighting | Animation $1,299 USD*
Escape Character | Lighting $1,999 USD*
Halo Compositing $2.999 USD*
Master Visual Effects | Complete Pipeline $17,000 USD*


If you are doing typical cg stuffs, I am pretty sure you can get away with Select.If not , think of how many programmers/coders you need in other software to keep the pipeline flowing .

altbighead
There is no such thing as expensive, if you can make a money out of it .
About the price, check the list again

Select     Modeling | Lighting | Animation  	         $1,299 USD*
Escape 	  Character | Lighting 	                            $1,999 USD*
Halo 	   Com .:lol:[/quote]

yeah i like that you said " if you can make money "

It's pretty clear that people are.

Remember that unlimited mantra rendering licenses follows one master.
So it is not that expensive if you want a farm.

altbighead

Select Modeling | Lighting | Animation $1,299 USD*
Escape Character | Lighting $1,999 USD*
Halo Compositing $2.999 USD*
Master Visual Effects | Complete Pipeline $17,000 USD*

If you are doing typical cg stuffs, I am pretty sure you can get away with Select.If not , think of how many programmers/coders you need in other software to keep the pipeline flowing .

There is no “typical cg stuff”.
I was always amazed at SESI's complete lack of flexibility when it comes to licensing. Which contrasts so much with the software itself.
My opinion is that 17K is too much. No matter what the software does.
If I try to elaborate, I would say that even if Houdini is certainly the most wonderful software out there, it's at the same time just like any other: it has missing pieces. So yes, you might gain much productivity from the workflow and features, saving you programming money, but you will still spend those money on programming a hair solver, or a fluid solver, or a translator for FBX so you can speak with the world etc. Features that other softwares have had for years, just like Houdini had it strenghts for years. When you draw the line it's the same thing.
Yet the big price makes it inaccesible to freelancers and small animation/motion graphics houses, which are the main responsibles for Max, Maya and LW being so popular.
I really think there is no justification for Houdini to be more than 10K.
The other side of this is that it's impossible for any small studio to grow with Houdini. This doesn't make any sense: Houdini Escape is 2K and the next version is 17K??? How can I evolve with this huge leaps? When you look at XSI, for example, you can buy various versions in smaller increments. I don't understand why each module of Houdini can't be licensed separately? For example, I'm interested in motion graphics and commercials. I would need Escape but with Halo integrated, for various image and post-processing tasks. I can't have that. After some months, I might need POPs for a job, yet I won't need DOPs, RenderMan, mental Ray etc. I can't do this kind of “upgrading” either. So how would I be able to choose Houdini if I know I can't “grow” it along my needs? Features wise, it's very close to the best software for a small animation/broadcast studio (ok, FBX is absolutely necessary). But the licensing scheme kills any attempt of even thinking at buying Houdini.

Dragos

Hi all,

I've been using Apprentice and haven't actually comitted to buying any of the houdini apps exactly because of these matters, i can spend those $2000 for an escape version but from there i know i won't (at least not any time soon) gain a job that allows me to spend $17000 required for the next step, so all i can do is jump from houdini escape to Maya unlimited, and from there back to houdini master (if jobs come along) otherwise i'm spending money in a closed solution that i know i won't be able to grow. For all those big studios this may seem pretty stupid but for a one person freelancer working in foreign countries like myself it would make every sense to have smaller increments. I can buy escape and keep using Master for learning purposes but i will never be able to use any advanced features for commercial work, thus never gaining more advanced work this seems somewhat limiting. Just my 2 cents anyway, i can understand Houdini Master offers a lot but i still think it could have a more gradual increase in pricing.

Cheers

there is something in it actually….
Houdini is targeted for BIG studios not for freelacers what can be seen from above mentioned facts… is it the right way of thinking? I don't know. I think that SESI owners are much closer “these guys” from “Hollywood” and never had the ambition to be worldwide software supplier - this politic has some sense actually: much less stress and efforts then in case of milions of clients, better support for sparces, software well-tailored for special order…

For a big company there is absolutely no difference if software cost is about 5K, 10K, 20K or 25K. Houdini is not the most expensive software in their house anyway. Specilly if they get mantra unlimited build-in. But for a smaller studios it is a difference.

Let's count:

17K / (POP+SOP+DOP+COP+RenderPlus) ~ 3,5K$ the prise for Houdini divisions. Let's say I want to use SOP+COP with 3 mantra licenses… basic TV works. This would be Softimage or Maya like which is ok, specilly with 2D compositor included. But does SESI really wants to be competitor for them? Avid and Alias have changed their targets recently to be more common usage software but Houdini was never supposed to be such app.
Do you really think that Discreet is interested do change Inferno prise? Infenro IS the 0,5milion$ baby…


ok, let's say next month I need best effects package on the world so I buy again POP+DOP+3xmantra licenses for another ~6K. This is ok, any specialized software costs so much (Endorpin, Massive, Nuke, RenderMan etc etc)

Next year I'm going to make a big movie so I need RenderMan support and unlimited mantra - so I buy these for another 5K… and we have 17K.

Of course it is so easy on monitor, what about SHOPS, VOPS, characters, program versions, parts integrations, and these tousands of new users, who have their rights, need support, expect extensive help. And who knows how many of these potentialy new users really exists and if there are enough of them to support new sofware…

Does it make any sense for SESI? Well, surely they know all of this and much more, so it must be a reason for their politic (like not being a competitor for Autodesk or Avid which could be stressful, painful and unprofitable…)

I really would like to see more Houdini out there, as you guys, but it doesn't mean that SESI would like it too. Being the worldwide supplier changes your life and your company, maybe they really don't want it?
If someone makes special equipment for Hable telescope this doesn't mean that he would like to make camera lenses for Sony as well.

best,
symek.

PS Does Houdini Master should have two versions: without unlimited Mantra and RenderMan support for ~10K and current version..?

Just my opinion but i think you nailed it.
The support you get alone is worth the admission price alone if you can afford it.

Hi,
Yes, i think you couldn't be more right, i can even understand their policy and i can even agree with it, if it wasn't the fact that i can't afford it

I just wish that i didn't basically have to use 2 different approaches to my work, spending $2000, dedicate myself to learning a powerful but also complex app and knowing forehand that i won't be able to use it when i land a nicer and more complex job because of it's pricing is extremely frustrating. Obviously i can understand the reasons and if that's what it takes to allow people to keep using the greatest app around and having the only industry decent support with it then by all means keep it pumping

Cheers

I agree it isn't wise to go for the freelancers,
when I was freelancing I would have paid no more
than AUD 5k for master, given its limitations and the
sweet deals on offer from other vendors. niceness and
elegance aren't valued (with $$) in that market,
its purely: how much is it? can it do what the client
is asking for? and can I get it done in a week?
-oh, and: will it thread to fully make use of ddc opteron?!
its a whole different world out there for which Houdini
probably isn't suited.

-cpb

I agree you have some valid points, many of them also crossed my mind. But I also disagree with many of them.

Houdini is targeted for BIG studios not for freelacers what can be seen from above mentioned facts… is it the right way of thinking?

I don't think so. I've seen that the replies were generally about freelancers, but I was mainly thinking about small generalistic studios. I think these are a valid market and they also provide people for the big studios. Also, Houdini has a very good toolset for the type of jobs those studios require, it's just not accessible to them.

This would be Softimage or Maya like which is ok, specilly with 2D compositor included. But does SESI really wants to be competitor for them?

I REALLY hope the answer is yes. I can't help but notice that the list of movies using Houdini is shorter each year, and even in movies wher Houdini is used, it's used for a small percentage of the effects in a film, contrary to Maya for example. Yes, I know, Houdini is growing, there are feture films made with it, but also I see that companies like Weta, wich used Houdini for few shots in the beginning, completely replaced it with Maya afterwards. I don't think a mentality like “Houdini is so special, it doesn't have a direct competitor” works in the marketplace. It might work when we talk about software, about approaches, but not in the marketplace.

Do you really think that Discreet is interested do change Inferno prise? Infenro IS the 0,5milion$ baby…

yes baby :wink: , but then I'll buy Piranha which is better, faster, and cheaper. But the truth is, as you already knew, that I could simply use a desktop app like DFusion with a cluster to do Inferno jobs (not client assisted) for even less money. There are always alternatives, as people who prefer to use the cheaper and inflexible Maya seem to think.

and these tousands of new users, who have their rights, need support, expect extensive help. And who knows how many of these potentialy new users really exists and if there are enough of them to support new sofware…

These are the problems of a company which grows. Everybody have them. If you are a player in the software market, you have to manage those problems. And I DO hope SESI wants to grow the number of Houdini users.

I really would like to see more Houdini out there, as you guys, but it doesn't mean that SESI would like it too.

I don't mean to be disrespectful, but this is a nonsense. :shock:

Regarding to price, I had 2 points in my previous reply. One was that I don't think Houdini shold cost more than 10K, considering the fact that, for all the wonderful features it has, it also lacks important ones, which competing software already has. I maintain this POV.
The other point was that, even if they maintain the 17K price, I don't understand why one can't buy it piece by piece. Although I read your reply repetedly, I didn't really get your oppinion on this. Do you think about this as a negative thing?

Dragos

I'm not really sure about these numbers of movies with Houdini on board… This should be concluded by SESI, how many liceneses they sell every year… do they have enough money to develop Houdini in way they want and recharge them self twise a year on Hawai.

I'm also not offended by the opinion that there is a nonsense to think that SESI is not interested with growing of their community. There was some oversinplifiing actually in my state. It should goes like this:

Do you know that some kind of books can't cost too less because nobody would buy it, the first in series mayby yes but another not? Some fancy ilustrated book on modern art, for example. This is paintful for students, but nessesery for publishers life. There are marketing strategy in which you take in acount such facts. Ferrari would like to sell as much cars as possible in so far as this wouldn't lead to farrari on every steet corner. Ferrari is too expensive to repair under guarantee so it wouldn't be a good buisness! Ferrari must become different to be successfuly sold in millions. The name for this is market divesification.

Unfortunately Houdini won't have much sense in parts. You can't spend 6K$ for modern software without particles and dynamic engine! Houdini with SOPs&COPs only would be worse and less effective then LightWave and THIS would be really bad for Houdini Master which should have the opinion: best of the best - to be sell with succes.

ok, let's finish it. I understand your frustration, this would be my case also if I would make 3D-effects. Fortunately I asking for them . Do you know what is it all about? It's about love. You really love Houdini so much that you would like to see it everywhere and be pround of it. I understand this because it's my case also. But, to be honesty: if WETA can use Maya for most of their work, you can also.

Do you know why Alias changed thier strategy? This was jump for money. Thay know that business is growing. 3D is becoming common practice, movies are just top of this mountian, Matrix is everywhere and year by year it will be more realistic - virtually of course. If they wouldn't do it, someone else would catch that cash. This has nothing to do with passions of few guys who changed the industry standards in 3d applications. If you imagine three or four guys just after thier studies who dreem to do something new, have vision and want to earn with it for life, houses, cars, and free time, you get the idea. I'm not talking about SESI. It can be true or not, doesn't matter. Let's say Shake; was written by compositors frustrated with absense of good tools for their job. Compare it with Toxic orginates: just marketing policy of gigant: if every shot in every movie needs compositing nowadays - we glue the code we have and do horrible tool for hudge work on this - we can sell it, don't worry, we have practise in it.

Behind every software there are the people and their passions OR blind passions of earning millions practised by people who have never seen their product on screen. The importense is in a balasne. If SESI will go bankrupt I was wrong .

cheers,
SYmek.

True that for freelancers it could be expensive.
BUT first people/studio should at least experiment Apprentice, and then they can discuss about the price. Here in Brazil, after being sent back to Maya and its pain, I showed people what Houdini can do, using one license + one person (against 5 Maya/persons) Now we are discussing how to implement Houdini in the pipeline.
Also one shouldn't forget the renting option. Could be a flexible choice for studios that make commercials and don't want to invest in a full license. Commercials industry is a very lucrative industry
.

Don't forget too that you don't have to be a very big shop before it makes financial sense to have one master license with a td on board and everyone else on select. I don't think it is promoted enough that a master file will open in select even though you can't edit all the bits an animator can still animate assets that include chops etc. I'm pretty sure that is the case, we are lucky enough to have all master licenses.
If i'm wrong please feel free to flame me, and if it's true then small companies do the math and see if it makes sense.

gerome_canada
True that for freelancers it could be expensive.
BUT first people/studio should at least experiment Apprentice, and then they can discuss about the price. Here in Brazil, after being sent back to Maya and its pain, I showed people what Houdini can do, using one license + one person (against 5 Maya/persons) Now we are discussing how to implement Houdini in the pipeline.

As I said before, let's consider that the 17K price it's OK. So it's not about the price anymore. It's about modularity. It's 17K which I don't / can't pay at once, because I might not even need all the features in the beginning. So: Escape: 2K, Master: 17K. How do I make such a big jump?

@Simon: if the Select can open Master files, this is a great thing and greatly under-advertised. It is a great solution for many shops, but here I'm mainly talking about the very small, very creative shops of 3 people (my case exactly).

Dragos

Yes, you can open Houdini Master files with Select. Say you create a hip file or HDA with POPs, DOPs etc, Select will be able to open the hip file or install the HDA but changes can't be made to the POPnets and DOPnets.

You can try it yourself with Apprentice. Create a hip file with Apprentice Master then open the file with Apprentice Select.

Cheers!
steven

stevenong
Yes, you can open Houdini Master files with Select. Say you create a hip file or HDA with POPs, DOPs etc, Select will be able to open the hip file or install the HDA but changes can't be made to the POPnets and DOPnets.
steven

I wonder if you can make changes using takes…?

digitallysane
My opinion is that 17K is too much. No matter what the software does.

If you're running a company, you set your prices not to what your potential clients *want* to pay, but to what they're *willing* to pay. If you're not willing, then don't buy! If you can make more than $17k with it, then you can afford it! Only you can judge whether the return-on-investment is worth it.

And at the end of the day, at least here in the US, salaries+fringe totally outweighs $17k.

gerome_canada
…Here in Brazil, after being sent back to Maya and its pain, I showed people what Houdini can do, using one license + one person (against 5 Maya/persons) Now we are discussing how to implement Houdini in the pipeline.
.

Hi Gerome, sorry to be off topic here. But I'm in Brazil too, and tried to contact you by PM but it is not working. I'd like to get in touch with more Houdini users around here.